I mean, in those days you had stamp and coin clubs, and you would go. And you know, we had sort of half-begging, half-boasting meetings where we said, "Yes, we know the boy got all Fs in high school. JUDITH RICHARDS: Are there any other [laughs] collections other than that? We put it on a trailer. [00:38:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I lovethat's something I did start doing in 2008. But if we can say, Engage with this art on your terms. And, you know, those are amazing moments. So they had had merger discussions in the '70s to merge the institutions, and the Higgins finally ran out of runway. [00:24:00]. Had you been thinking about it? And that risk is that that day, that buyer is not in the room. JUDITH RICHARDS: An investor rather than a conductor. A picture should not reappear three times [laughs] on the market. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Porcelain. And so he gave me this Hefty bag and he told me to sort it. And I said, Oh, this is obvious what's happening. I mean, you know, recently we did some work on Joseph Wright of Derby, and Cleveland bought our Joseph Wright of Derby. He had that very sort ofhe had an idea about using modern architecture in all his buildings. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And it was justI thought the frame was incredible. [Laughs.] So [00:48:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: But you didn't havethat were well-managed, and you didn't have to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well-managed, I have two dinners per year with the management team and. It was very early. CLIFFORD SCHORER: it all goes back to the, you know, I remember these places. I hadyeah. Time goes by, and they use your name, yeah. Then they have these mosaics from Antioch. How long did you continue collecting in that field? I would. JUDITH RICHARDS: And what was Ruth's last name? And I got to the point whereand again, I'll beI'll stand corrected on this, because I know a collector in Boston who has a very strong opinion on what I'm about to saybut I ended my venture in Chinese export porcelain to my satisfaction, meaning that I couldn't go any further in that particular collecting area, other than to buy more expensive, singular examples of the same thing. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the Imperial, did you end up selling it? It was a good job at Best Products. So, yes, I've had, over the years, to send things to the art museum or to conservators or to other places to get them out of my house. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I was able to make some pretty interesting and exciting discoveries, things I recognized were by the artist that others may not have, and I was able to buy them. I mean, it was basically, you know, not anyou know, it was like you're trying to pass the day away; you're walking around the city; and there's this building that's 40 feet wide, 60 feet deep [laughs], you know, and you go in, because it's open, and, you know, they charge nothing to go in. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Early 20th-century British and Continental. They were contemporary dealers. Clifford Schorer, a Boston-based collector, forgot to bring a present for the party he was attending, so he stopped by a bookstore that sold collectables on . So several years later he passed away, and apparently they hadn't yet sold the Procaccini. And, you know, obviously, I've been concerned about the state of that scholarship, which I think of late has been very much slanted towards the marketplace. I went from, you know, the Gustave Moreau museum to theor well, pre-d'Orsay, right? I remember reading his book, just because it was there. You know, they can figure outso, JUDITH RICHARDS: I think I came across the name Schorer. And it wasn't mine. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That is from my paleontological collecting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That's very funny. I said, "I'm just a local guy, and I just came by to see this collection. So, you know, we can talk endlessly about art, and, you know, he invites me to his house, and we look at art. You can admire; if you want to buy, you pay our price and you buy. [1:02:00]. So, you know, I did that kind of loop aesthetically, where I went from the filigree to the shadow. Rockox. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That's a tough question. [00:08:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So he would've comehe would've come into America then, and didn't speak English becausefrom what I could tell, his English was a second languageand then became an engineer. When the mainland Chinese entered the marketplace, it was all changed. CLIFFORD SCHORER: sort of with art 24-7 in London because I have the gallery. And, you know, I basically said, you know, "Is there anything you'd like from me?" And my maternal grandmother, Ruth, was still living. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have a brother, a younger brother. To have the picture debuted with this book about how it's a masterpiece; have it not sell. So back then, you know, we were in. JUDITH RICHARDS: You've started your own company, Bottom Line Exchange. He said, "Well, we'll make you a Corporator." JUDITH RICHARDS: Havein that sense about the object, since you served on the board of Worcester Art Museum, and you've been involved in their acquisitions committee, and you've lent them work, it seems like you are interestedbut I wanted to ask how interestedin the role of the museum, and the role of collector as educator, educating the public, expanding their understanding and appreciation of works that you love. I would just go up and talk to them, and we would talk for half an hour, and I'd walk away. And I had to carry the pieces. This is a Renaissance object. Winslow Homer (February 24, 1836 - September 29, 1910) was an American landscape painter and printmaker, best known for his marine subjects.He is considered one of the foremost painters in 19th-century America and a preeminent figure in American art. It was called the Professors ProgramUniversity Professors Program. So then flash-forward three years, and it's back on the market again, with a slightly lower estimate this time. So there wasn't alwaysthere was this idea that they werethey must have been from one commission, because they were the same size, but there was not a full knowledge of what this commission was until at least the last decade, when all these pieces came together. Having old art in New England is not the easiest thing, because of humidity control, which is almost impossible. I'm actually building a building in Massachusetts for that, which. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have a lust for all the things the objects do in my brain. It sounds, from what you've said, that you prefer a level of anonymity with your loans and your donations. We didsoand I decided to do my homage to Carlo Crivelli. JUDITH RICHARDS: Hello. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Absolutely. And only 10 years later did I find out that my father was so furious that I had left school that he had me fired from Gillette by telling them how old I actually was. This growing passion? CLIFFORD SCHORER: these are bigger projects. We can still do a very large volume in dollars, but a very small volume in picturesyou know, dollars or poundsbut a very small volume in pictures. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That would've been a little bit early. So rather than go back to schoolI wasn't going back to schoolI went and got a programming job at Lifeline Systems, which was a very short, concentrated project. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you been involved with other arts institutions besides Worcester? CLIFFORD SCHORER: My first car was my grandfather's van. No, no, no, I will. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Gallery exhibition, or that take the gallery in ayou know, in the direction that Anthony wants us to steer. Well, it is, because you have the curators who are advocating for the artwork, for the artists and the collectors. It was just books on subjects that interested me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that'sso, and I'm getting there. So we're going to charge a buyer's premium; we're going to charge 20 percent from the buyer." Matter of fact, for a great deal of time in speaking to all three of them, they didn't know who I was. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a little municipal museum. I think there are 3- or 400,000 photographs in our archive, and if, JUDITH RICHARDS: This is the archive that's been acquired by the National. I'm trying to think what other fairs we've done. You know, but in general, I mean, it's usuallyshe has a pretty good eye and I respect her. That part of your life expand that way? CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I mean every year, the Alboni[Alessandro] Allorithe Allori that was soldthis is a good one. Well, we talked about that a little earlier. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So by the time I was 20, I started collecting, you know, monochrome from the Song period. Or you found that going. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wentI had a pretty bad high school experience. But I do see that I have to be conscious of the conflicts of interest, and that conflict of interest also impacts theyou know, I don't want the collectors who buy from Agnew's to think that they're getting second shot at things that I've already vetted and said I don't want for myself. Followers. But, yeah, I mean. All of a sudden, there's 30 mainland Chinese people in the room. JUDITH RICHARDS: That would mean three or four years? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Michael Ripps, who's a scholar who has worked with the Frick on a number of sort of investigations of the art market and things like that, he came to me, and he said, you know, "You should meet with Julian Agnew, because they're selling the library and maybe more." I mean, I think that right nowso what we did in the interim is, we did this portraiture show which brought in, CLIFFORD SCHORER: It brought in Kehinde Wiley, Lucien Freud, and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, otheryou know, Kehinde Wiley's. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Every year, there's a new sort of thing on the horizon. How can they possibly have a Piero di Cosimo in Worcester? And then I would see the object resurface with a new price tag on it. So, you know, you think about the quality of the art, but also the taste choices that one makes at any given moment in the history of the firm. So I wasn't at home there, you know, as a person. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean you went down at 15? Born on February 24 1836, he was well known for painting marine subjects. Clifford Schorer is the Co-Founder & Director at Greenwich Energy Solutions. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So that was fine. You know, there was aI forget who the famous collector was, that says, "I deal to collect." Well, we still have some aspects of those things, but certainly not at the scale. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I remember going there. 750 9th Street, NWVictor Building, Suite 2200 CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was 16 going on 17, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I neededI needed to. Well, I mean, Agnew's is very strong, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Agnew's was very strong up until, CLIFFORD SCHORER: yeah, mid-century British. Solely responsible. I felt authenticity when I saw it. JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yes, every day. It was about [00:52:00]. Not a lot of pieces, because they were much more expensive. His oil paintings were immensely expressive. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds like you had a natural eye. And I'm thinking, Who are these people? And in some cases, they still collect in those fields, or more likely, given that it's now 40 years later, many of them are either passed away or quite old now. Well, I mean, there's a smaller market, so it's something we have to adjust to. So, yeah, I mean, there are some instances, but those kinds of thingsso we're doing that, and obviously, we're open and exploring ideas of what the next show will be. So I called my friend at Sotheby's, and I said, "What's the story?" JUDITH RICHARDS: You had no idea when you went to Plovdiv that there would be such a. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a big change, yes. I didn't. And my grandfather, similarly, was not particularly book-learned but was an incredible engineer. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Bless you. Have you thought about that issue, debated it, considered where you stand on it? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I still spent a lot of my timeregional auction houses, and I had expanded by then to go to the library and look at all the French auction houses. So I had readI forgot which painting it was; it was the [Bernardo] Strozzi. That'syou know, those are all possibilities. You know, there's a story that Mao exported more Ming porcelain in the 1950s than the Ming made. But, you know, that, to me, is all very rewarding. They had wonderful people. It was extraordinary. The auction house will charge me zero." I wasI was alwaysintimidated was not really my MO. He was a very important stamp collector. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you only spent one year there? And recently, what I do is I actuallyI get involved with the construction projects for them, so I'm building their new buildings, which I love. It's a crazy catastrophe of storage. We should close the museum tomorrow and give everybody that walks by on the sidewalk $400 and just call it a day, because that's what the budget is. 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