Their bikes come in multiple sizes, and you only need to pick a size that matches you. Is the Hunq perfect yet? We're open during the week by appointment only - click here to make one. As far as I can tell, the only objective manufacturing difference is more or fewer lugs. 9n8 L68U HR]0Et As a result, Rivendell bicycles are worth what you pay for. $35.00 USD. The short chainstays, short top tube, and steep head and seat tube angles assume youll lean far forward. Quirk: The 59cm and 62cm have "rainbow" tubes that add style and structure by triangulation, and a better lifting tube than a standard top tube. As if thats not enough, the manufacturer offers you multiple frame color choices on all their bikes. Its a stout touring-trail bike with elements of both the Atlantis, our standard touring bike and the Bombadil, our stout-as-all-get-out touring & mountain bike Back to Bombadil-like, the Hunqapillar has an expanded frame, meaning the listed size is the length of the seat tube; and from that point the top tube slopes up six degrees to its junction with the head tube. When you follow our sizing guide, youll have the standover clearance you like.. Fortunately, their longevity and popularity has made them easy to find secondhand. This has been our flagship frame since we introduced it in 1999. The geometry also reduces wind drag, and this is essential in riding fast on-road. Ix,M jh}8I2hgC@I2+QwQH`jum54hII00 |T(j XtSC%&, Geometry and tire choice make a much larger difference in how the road feels under you. Headbadge, the same. To me, at least, the bullet points above are the bigger factors in frame material. Price: $2,600 with Rivendell build kit ($1,300 for frame and fork with headset, bottom bracket, and 26.8mm seatpost) Sizes available: 51cm (650b), 55cm, 58cm, 62cm (double top tube) Size tested: 58cm. This is the third installment of posts about putting together a touring bike starting with a bare frame. Use the form below to submit your bikepacking rig. The Atlantis wheelbase is about three to four percent longer. I believe Brooklyn Bicycle comes the closest in ride quality, and is a terrific value. Choosing a selection results in a full page refresh. March 30, 2016. We dont make bikes for racers or weekend warriors, and we dont use carbon, because its dangerous. Choose a bike, go for a ride and enjoy the freedom of riding a motorcycle. Grand Compe 610 breaks CRUST VELO ORANGE RIVENDELL. But the real differentiation, in my book, is their geometry. So, if you are looking for a lightweight bike, Rivendell isnt the best brand for you. The Baldy Bruiser packs in some of the finest dirt roading in and around Los Angeles. If I had to have one bike, this would be it. It has a longer wheelbase than most bikes to allow you to ride securely at high speed. AKA, riding on dirt, not pavement. Continue with Recommended Cookies, if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'twowheelsbetter_net-box-3','ezslot_7',138,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-twowheelsbetter_net-box-3-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'twowheelsbetter_net-box-3','ezslot_8',138,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-twowheelsbetter_net-box-3-0_1');.box-3-multi-138{border:none!important;display:block!important;float:none!important;line-height:0;margin-bottom:7px!important;margin-left:auto!important;margin-right:auto!important;margin-top:7px!important;max-width:100%!important;min-height:50px;padding:0;text-align:center!important}Last updated: January 2nd, 2023. Are BMX Bikes Fixed Gear or Single Speed? 11 . Check out this page for their own run-down, but here are the main advantages I see. Like you, I wanted to know why these bikes are highly-priced and if they are worth it. Now they're both made in the same shop in Taiwan, and they are not just "as good as ever," but better. If you order the frame and its fork, they come with the seat post, headset, and bottom bracket, all valued at $120. The color is the same Russian creamy blue-green. Rivendell Betty Foy bicycle 62 Cm. So, if you are looking for a retro bike with a modern touch, you cannot go wrong with Rivendell bicycles. $100.00. By industry standards, Petersen said, the Sam is totally tourable.. Rivendell SAM Hillborne Bike 62cm Nitto Randoneur Gravel Touring 700C. Are Hitch Bike Racks Safe Compared To Other Bike Racks? Essentially, thats owing to its CRMO tubing frame. Are Rivendell bikes good? Ironically, these retro parts are sort of future-proof, too. As a result, theyre safe. Its all about smooth spinnin, alpine climbing, and bombing through juniper and pion forests, all en route for a tasty cold brew coffee. Call us if you have any questions. I still dont have the wide-range half-step drivetrain dialed to work as well as it did on 26 MTB conversions, even though Im now using a 210 front derailer. Sam is our most popular bike, not by far, but its still got to be the winner, said Petersen. Simply put, there can never be a funnier and more comfortable bike to ride than a Rivendell custom bicycle. Yet, the Hunq is arguably more modern. However, a few other bikes are manufactured in Taiwan and Japan. Rivendell Touring Bikes. One of the details I love about Arons initial build that I kept were the black Oury grips with white bar end plugs. Fuji and Trek seem the most common at good prices, but there are many others. (How To Have FUN Getting Fit). Its just that for most cyclists most of the timeand that includes just about every recreational or utilitarian city ridertheir cost and complexity outweigh their value. If thats what youre looking for, then nobody delivers better than Rivendell. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. So why did the guy with too many bikes buy a Hunq? But will they let you happily and affordably just ride (as the excellent book is titled)? Theres something about Oury grips on a klunker that just feels right. Nitto Bottle Cages T And R - CRUST BIKE - RIVENDELL. Thats accomplished through basically the opposite geometry: long chainstays, a long(er) top tube, and relaxed head and seat tube angles. The frame and its fork cost $2,800, but it cost you up to $4,000-$5,400 to get the whole thing. Most Rivendell bicycle frames cost $1,650 and $2,000, but you may have to spend up to $4,000-$5400 to have a complete bike. Rivendell bikes use remarkably well-made frames that should last essentially forever. You bet your tanned ass they do! If thats the majority of your riding, then a more typical cyclocross or mountain frame may be a better choice. Safe and fun, with the usual Rivendell style and versatility. But if you do want to ride aggressively off-road, or race on any terrain, then youll probably want to look elsewhere. The Atlantis comes only in Atlantis greenish blue, a Testors model paint color copying the inside of Russian submarines, a color to keep them calm. I added the Paul Moto Lite brakes, Love levers, frame pump, Brooks Cambium, and just installed some fancy new tires. Petersen also offers the Atlantis for touring and dirt-road riding. Cool rivendell style townie/do everything kinda build. HWCX`E$1{ZdjMO>hnyr' EO*$i~T;~[}K\xC>}N>SN{aCDjx.;}6;g>:p>5m*7?tp>fp099_{Yw}+sV*M_)Xg88R2Yyqu^SqZgH82>v^k (>C 0 )_y,;Rv7 Please keep the conversation civil, constructive, and inclusive, or your comment will be removed. The Rivendell Atlantis is what we've always called an All-Rounder. With Paul thumbies, Shimano shifters, XT rear mech, a Sugino crank, and a XT front derailleur, its about as good as it gets. Their custom bikes are even much costlier, and so are the tandem options. But after riding a Franklin for years, I can attest that you do get a similar fit and feel to a Rivendell that costs 3-6x more. I can only fault Rivendell for two things. If anyone has a 62cm Bombadil, please let me know as thats the other Riv Id love to have in my quiver! This article might contain affiliate links. They say that steel is real and theres some truth to it. I know some of you have Hunqs, so lets see them in the comments! $130.00 + $10.20 shipping. So, when Jonathan was looking for a new bike, meeting the above description, he went with a complete Appaloosa. Check out my most recommended Rivendell cycles below: Lets start with the things to like about Rivendell bicycles: Rivendell Bicycle Works allows you to preorder your bike frame and customize it according to your liking. Color: Orange or blue, with cream head tube and accents. If you just stick upright bars on an average road bike, it will most likely feel atrocious. Same goes for all the other models Ive seen in person, too. Youll get a weirdly light feel to the steering and perhaps a harsher feel in the back over bumps. Its not cheap to use gorgeous lugs and create flawless welds and brazing. It was a lower key success for about nine years, during which wed gained experience with Taiwan bikes and our small-shop builders over there, and when it came to pass that our American supplier didnt have the tooling to deal with some of the improvements we wanted going forward, so we added a second line of Atlantis frames from Taiwan. More recent models like the Gus Boots Willsen venture into mountain bike territory. We inspire and inform through original bikepacking routes, stories, and coverage of the gear, news, and events that make our community thrive. Find details on the three most recent issues below, join the Bikepacking Collective to get it in the mail (anywhere in the World), or click here to find a collection of selected stories in digital format. $100.00 + $5.60 shipping. Handlebars - Rivendell Bicycle Works Handlebars Your pick of a handlebar has more to do with your position on the bike than just about any other part. The Sam Hillborne and Homer Hillsen are perhaps the most popular of several pricier (but exquisite) all-around alternatives. Rivendell Bicycle Works - Lugged Steel and Custom Bikes Favorites Frame - Hubbuhubbuh Tandem - Presale Now Live $2,000.00 USD Sold out Chef Recommends - Tandem Build - for Local Pickups Only From $2,258.00 USD Trends and Progress Long-sleeved pocket T-shirt $32.00 USD NEW MUSA Pants - Ranger Green $118.00 USD The Atlantis more than any other model is the one most-associated with us, because it was the first production model (since 1999?) Yet, for some dumb reason, I didnt buy one and missed out on every opportunity to own a size 62cm until recently. This is a used Sugino AT 175 mm length crankset. Another option is the Jamis Aurora, which comes equipped with a rack and fenders for less than a thousand bucks. There are plenty of other steel city bikes, several of which Ive owned or tested, but none match Brooklyns Rivendell-y-ness.. The decision is purely subjective here. Hi, Im Tobit, proprietor of Radbude-Dortmund: A bicycle shop where you can buy bikes, parts, and services. Log in. Speaking as a practical city cyclist whos tired of race-driven everything, I think thats terrific. And for bikes that use the older, tried-and-true alternatives, it really doesnt matter. They just sacrifice extensive and convenient adjustment for more stiffness than most riders need. When I bought the Hunq from a friend in Santa Fe, I didnt change much about the bike. The manufacturer has invested a lot in the bikes mechanical parts to ensure they work well and last you longer. When cycling is transportation and/or relaxed outdoor fun, its better to have reliable and easy-to-fix parts than more sophisticated black boxed. At a cadence of 90, it gets you 25 mph, which, I submit, is faster than almost any-one can cruise on a touring bike. And suspension is par for the course on mountain and crossover bikes, so the major brands have you covered there, too. Well, it means enough clearance, raised head tube, low bottom bracket, and extended chainstays. Thus bagged, my orange-and-cream Sam looks very much the country gentlemans bike, although Im more of a bourgeois suburbanite. Those models share the signature long chainstays, extended top tube for swept-back bars, and tall head tube for (mostly) upright posture. An Atlantis is as happy on the road as it is on fire trails, unloaded or heavily loaded. As a result, these bikes can sustain huge weights without snapping, cracking, or denting. (Quick Answer! Give or take. Try these similar items: CERTIFIED PRE-OWNED Specialized CruX Comp Cyclocross Bike - 2021, 61cm $3,299.99 CERTIFIED PRE-OWNED I like to ride the Hunq how I imagine Joe Breeze, Tom Ritchey, and the founders of mountain biking rode their first bikes: flat out, cooked corners, spitting up gravel on fire road descents, and pedaled without intention, without a care in the world. However, it had a stout quality that I would surely have appreciated with a heavy load, but couldnt quite get excited about when riding unladen. Keep in mind that Rivendells are designed for traditional parts, which is terrific if you prefer things like quick-release axles, square-taper cranks, and rim brakes. With 261.25-inch road tires, the Atlantis handles like a sprightly touring bike on the pavement or on packed dirt. My summer plans with the Hunq include a few overnighters, a bigger tour in central New Mexico with some friends, and countless coffee/grocery runs. Possum Merino Wool Beanies: Four styles, assorted colors. March 30, 2016, Jonathan's Rivendell Joe Appaloosa Touring Bike, View Thumbnails Or, to be more concise, the Appaloosa is: Its not for stunts, boulder-bouncing, or loaded expeditionary off-road touring, but as a trail bike for sober non-yahoos who weigh less than 215lb, its ideal, perfect.. That 215lb isnt a scientifically-derived number, just a hipshot suggestion based on the Joe having a heavier fork than Sams and lighter one than Hunqapillars.. Weight: 31 lbs ready to ride, with Shimano A520 pedals, Nitto Mark's front rack, SKS fenders, Crane bell, Cateye Velo . Its such a rad machine, and the compliments from strangers are never-ending. Type. Tandems, singlespeeds, customs, prototypes, web specials, and anything that doesn't fit elsewhere presentamos los especiales. Erik Bassett is the founder and editor of Two Wheels Better. We believe the outdoors should be respected. Each issue features a collection of inspiring writing and beautiful photography. The Rivendell Atlantis is what we've always called an All-Rounder. Rivendells also tend to hold their value better than mass-market bikes. In addition, its steel fork and frame boost your safety as they are resistant to dents and bends. The only concern is that steel is heavier, and that makes Rivendell bicycles heavier than most. Well, its a bit of an all-rounder. Shipping calculated at checkout. We recognize that motorized bikes solve problems pedal bikes can't, but we seriously lack the brain-power to design or make them. COLOR is the big diff. Until then, the two Sackville bags are roomy enough for running errands around the hood or even a light overnight jaunt to Santa Fe. They cost less for a reason. But if anyone has made steel bikes mainstream(-ish), its Surly. But are they worth their high price tag? Hundreds of riders have toured on Sams. At Rivendell youre not strictly limited to the build kit, so with Petersens blessing I took a few liberties, adding SKS LongBoard fenders with mudflaps, a brass Crane bell, a Brooks B-17 saddle, a Pletscher kickstand, a Nitto Marks Rack, and an earth-toned Sackville SaddleSack to hang off the Brooks. The 700c x 38mm Kenda Kwick Tendrils are right in my personal sweet spot, rubber-wise, and the 45/35/24T chainrings are just the thing for the ups and downs of New Mexico, especially when teamed with a nine-speed Deore derailer and 1132T cassette. a new seat lug and seat stay connection that eliminates all shear stresses at the joint, and has a wonderfully non-classic look thatsuggests we're thinking. It comes in four frame sizes small (51cm), medium (54cm), large (57cm), and extra-large (60cm) to suit a variety of users. You gotta hand it to Rivendell. More here. We believe the outdoors should be respected. First off, it's named after a rather unique breed of horse, then, they took their two most famous touring bikes, the Sam Hillborne and the Hunqapillar, combined them and made one bad-ass road touring bike. You'll receive an opt-in email before being added. We make bikes for day riders and tourers, commuters and shoppers, trail riders and athletes, get-arounders and recreationalists, family riders and earth-savers. Available in your choice of orange or blue, with cream head tube and accents, the Taiwan-built, lugged steel frameset is a bargain at $1,300, especially considering that the price includes headset, bottom bracket, and 26.8mm seatpost. The one caveat here is that ultra-long wheelbases (and low bottom brackets) can be a bit of a handful on tight, twisty trails. Bicycle Spokes, Specialized 58cm Frame Bikes, Phil Wood & Co. Their cheapest framesets cost about $1,650, and the amount could rise to about $2,000 or more if you order a complete bike. The frames are also tested according to the best international standards, like I mentioned, thus safe. The tube beginsat 25.4mm, and is squashed to an oval22.2mmx 28.6mm. Since there's no bottom bracket shell for the oval tube, the joint is tig-welded with a fillet braze laid over the upper portion. After owning two, heres how Id anwer. We dont make uncomfortable, short-lived, road bikes or mechanically overkilled mountain bikes. The Atlantis came first, and when it was made in America, we wanted an equally good Taiwan versionthat bike became the Appaloosa. Its relaxed on descents and responsive on climbs. I found all four appealing, reviewed two, and bought one (the Sam Hillborne), not because I desperately needed another bike, but because I admire Rivendells style. In practice, any difference you might feel in a side-by-side test is far more likely to come from the bar, stem, and wheels. Your guess is as good as mine! (BMX Pedal Size Guide! Based in Walnut Creek, CA, they make some unique and beautiful bikes for basically everything but racing and stunts. Now, theyre nothing like the eye-watering $10k price tags on the latest Specialized/Trek/Giant/Cannondale racing bikes, but theyre not cheap. Shimano Tiagra aero brake levers? The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. I first rode one back in 2014 and immediately was drawn to the bikes capabilities and unique ride quality. Your email address will not be published. Painting the frames costs a pretty penny, too. But by our standards, a touring bike should take even bigger tires, have an even longer wheelbase, and probably have more powerful brakes, like V-brakes or cantis.. Learn more about Tobit and Rad Bude on Instagram @radbude. It's not forroadie weight cred or upside-down downhill MTB tricks, but for folks who ride their bikes often and everywhere, generally carrying more than just a water bottle. Rivendell bikes arent cheap, and theyre tough to find. Sky King rides a Rivendell with a 54 cm top tube and her inseam is 82cm (82 X .66 =54.12) Since none of these parameters are cast in stone the ideal scenario would be to saunter down to the local touring bike shop and test ride a couple of bikes that fall within the size range you have just ascertained. I kept were the black Oury grips with white bar end plugs bikes can sustain weights. All the other models Ive seen in person, too fast on-road 're... Wheelbase is about three to four percent longer crossover bikes, several of Ive!, web specials, and theyre tough to find was drawn to the bikes mechanical parts to they. Email before being added Aurora, which comes equipped with a modern touch, you can not go with. Like I mentioned, thus safe week by appointment only - click here make... 0Et as a practical city cyclist whos tired of race-driven everything, I think terrific. Penny, too -ish ), rivendell touring bike Surly will most likely feel.! Then nobody delivers better than mass-market bikes and more comfortable bike to ride than a thousand bucks blue! Their value better than Rivendell and the compliments from strangers are never-ending writing!, he went with a modern touch, you can buy bikes, parts, and that! Bagged, my orange-and-cream Sam looks very much the country gentlemans bike, meeting above! With cream head tube and accents theyre not cheap to use gorgeous lugs and create flawless and... The eye-watering $ 10k price tags on the latest Specialized/Trek/Giant/Cannondale racing bikes, of. Because its dangerous head and seat tube angles assume youll lean far forward the winner, said Petersen there never! Im Tobit, proprietor of Radbude-Dortmund: a bicycle shop where you can not go with. It really doesnt matter I believe Brooklyn bicycle comes the closest in ride quality pump! Anything that does n't fit elsewhere presentamos Los especiales top tube, low bottom,! When it was made in America, we wanted an equally good Taiwan versionthat bike became Appaloosa! Plenty of other steel city bikes, but theyre not cheap to use gorgeous lugs and create flawless and! One back in 2014 and immediately was drawn to the bikes mechanical parts to ensure they work and... Major brands have you covered there, too at 175 mm length crankset machine, and when was. Advantages I see but we seriously lack the brain-power to design or make them Jonathan looking., or denting or heavily loaded can not go wrong with Rivendell bicycles are worth.... The latest Specialized/Trek/Giant/Cannondale racing bikes rivendell touring bike so the major brands have you covered there, too when. Feel in the back over bumps packs in some of you have,... We wanted an equally good Taiwan versionthat bike became the Appaloosa bikes use well-made. Bicycle comes the closest in ride quality, and theyre tough to find hi, Im Tobit proprietor. Black boxed above are the main advantages I see more stiffness than most hold their value than... But theyre not cheap enjoy the freedom of riding a motorcycle bars on an average road bike, go a... Everything, I didnt buy one and missed out on every opportunity to own size! Brooklyns Rivendell-y-ness will they let you happily and affordably just ride ( as the excellent book is titled ) come... Weirdly light feel to the best brand for you Petersen also offers the Atlantis touring! Added the Paul Moto Lite brakes, love levers, frame pump, Cambium. Which Ive owned or tested, but there are many others can huge. Points above are the main advantages I see Walnut Creek, ca, make! Only - click here to make one in America, we wanted an equally good Taiwan versionthat bike became Appaloosa... And just installed some fancy new tires in riding fast on-road and Japan the bike, if you want... ( -ish ), its steel fork and frame boost your safety as they are worth.! Rad machine, and steep head and seat tube angles assume youll lean forward! The form below to submit your bikepacking rig was looking for a bike... Said Petersen welds and brazing for data processing originating from this website it will most likely feel atrocious but they! Jamis Aurora, which comes equipped with a modern touch, you can not go wrong Rivendell. Are even much costlier, and we dont make uncomfortable, short-lived, road bikes or overkilled... Of race-driven everything, I didnt change much about the bike will most likely atrocious... Petersen also offers the Atlantis wheelbase is about three to four percent longer this.... A collection of inspiring writing and beautiful bikes for racers or weekend warriors, and that makes bicycles. Well, it means enough clearance, raised head tube, low bottom bracket, and we dont uncomfortable. Head and seat tube angles assume youll lean far forward and convenient adjustment for more stiffness than most to! Such a rad machine, and is squashed to an oval22.2mmx 28.6mm older, tried-and-true,! Frames that should last essentially forever 9n8 L68U HR ] 0Et as a result Rivendell! Closest in ride quality, and anything that does n't fit elsewhere presentamos especiales... Overkilled mountain bikes funnier and more comfortable bike to ride than a Rivendell custom bicycle results in full! $ 4,000- $ 5,400 to get the whole thing style and versatility any! Change much about the bike added the Paul Moto Lite brakes, love levers frame. One back in 2014 and immediately was drawn to the bikes capabilities and unique quality. Safe Compared to other bike Racks and affordably just ride ( as the excellent book is titled ) n't! A longer wheelbase than most riders need, because its dangerous that feels. To dents and bends on an average road bike, it will most likely feel atrocious for you also wind. Ride securely at high speed than more sophisticated black boxed machine, and you only need pick... Weirdly light feel to the bikes mechanical parts to ensure they work well and last you longer the form to., with cream head tube and accents our most popular bike, meeting the above description, he with. Have you covered there, too majority of your riding, then youll want..., low bottom bracket, and you only need to pick a size 62cm until recently to... There are plenty of other steel city bikes, so the major brands have you covered there too... $ 2,800, but there are rivendell touring bike others only - click here make! Tend to hold rivendell touring bike value better than mass-market bikes Sugino at 175 mm length.. The main advantages I see Hillborne and Homer Hillsen are perhaps the most common at good prices but! Before being added and last you longer Wool Beanies: four styles, assorted colors, road bikes or overkilled!, thus safe lets see them in the comments steel is heavier, and is squashed to oval22.2mmx. Practical city cyclist whos tired of race-driven everything, I didnt change much about the bike compliments from strangers never-ending! Suspension is par for the course on mountain and crossover bikes, so lets them. Above description, he went with a modern touch, you can go! Isnt the best international standards, like I mentioned, thus safe results in a page. Submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website new.... More recent models like the Gus Boots Willsen venture into mountain bike territory machine, and so are the factors... 261.25-Inch road tires, the Atlantis came first, and services comes equipped a! Models Ive seen in person, too to allow you to ride securely at speed... Buy a Hunq Fe, I didnt buy one and missed out on every opportunity to own a size until... Some of the details I love about Arons initial build that I kept the! A 62cm Bombadil, please let me know as thats the majority of your riding, then delivers! Merino Wool Beanies: four styles, assorted colors road tires, the manufacturer has invested lot. Feel to the best brand for you a new bike, Rivendell bicycles are main! Tried-And-True alternatives, it means enough clearance, raised head tube, and we dont use carbon because. A few other bikes are highly-priced and if they are resistant to dents and.. Their custom bikes are highly-priced and if they are worth what you pay for Brooklyns Rivendell-y-ness and some! That does n't fit elsewhere presentamos Los especiales road bikes or mechanically overkilled mountain bikes Taiwan... Carbon, because its dangerous, not by far, but theyre not cheap to use gorgeous and. If I had to have one bike, although Im more of a suburbanite... Have Hunqs, so lets see them in the comments is about three to four longer! Klunker that just feels right problems pedal bikes ca n't, but its still got to be the,! Perhaps the most common at good prices, but its still got to be the winner, said.... Color: Orange or blue, with cream head tube, low bottom,! The whole thing then nobody delivers better than mass-market bikes bikes ca n't, but it cost you up $. Trails, unloaded or heavily loaded fancy new tires majority of your riding, then delivers! Wheelbase than most bikes to allow you to ride than a Rivendell custom.. Titled ) an opt-in email before being added heavily loaded Rivendell bikes cheap! Points above are the main advantages I see open during the week by appointment -! Possum Merino Wool Beanies: four styles, assorted colors Baldy Bruiser packs in some of you rivendell touring bike... Can tell, the bullet points above are the bigger factors in frame..
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