weatherby element problemsweatherby element problems
This is my first semi-auto 12 gauge and I love it. non-standard, curved, essentially solid recoil pad. I was looking at the Mossberg Silver Reserve II. problems, but still retains the strangely cut TSA pad that is Use one hand to hold the buttstock behind the receiver tang of the shotgun and your other hand on the forend. Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. Common Problems With The Weatherby Orion Shotguns When it comes to problems that affect firearms, there seems to be a mixed reaction depending on individual gun use experience. Some of the data that are collected include the number of visitors, their source, and the pages they visit anonymously. 1-1/8 oz. The only problem is that whoever was packing the key into the choke tube case didnt care because it doesnt fit so I got a bunch of little plastic pieces fall in my lap while opening, But I dont use the case so I dont make a big deal but it is still a part of the product so I said it. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. The fit and finish isnt what youll get with a Benelli, but for the money, the M3500, 3000, and 3020 are all great values. Very happy with the V3. Don't know anything about the element. The Price for a Weatherby Element has increased in cost by $8.70 in 2023 compared to 2022. var lo = new MutationObserver(window.ezaslEvent); What I have seen a few of the weatherbys and don't seem to be made as well as thier o/u's or higher end rifles. Many of the inertia-driven autoloaders that came out of that country were junk, to be frank. Remington 870 Express SuperMag Hardwoods Camo 26". has their new A5, a hard gun to love with its screwed-up factory performers.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'randywakeman_com-large-mobile-banner-1','ezslot_6',111,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-randywakeman_com-large-mobile-banner-1-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'randywakeman_com-large-mobile-banner-1','ezslot_7',111,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-randywakeman_com-large-mobile-banner-1-0_1');.large-mobile-banner-1-multi-111{border:none!important;display:block!important;float:none!important;line-height:0;margin-bottom:7px!important;margin-left:auto!important;margin-right:auto!important;margin-top:7px!important;max-width:100%!important;min-height:250px;padding:0;text-align:center!important}. Megaline hard case, where everyone else just stuffs cardboard boxes. Element wins. It seems like its the age old question, which is better Ford, Dodge or Chevy??? But, if you have warranty coverage, you can send it to the manufacturers as it might be a production problem and not due to aging. I will stick to weatherby after owning this gun. Griptonite stock features pistol grip and forend inserts. 6-3/4 lbs. The modern kinematic / inertia action was developed by Bruno Holding your first shot typically guarantees your third shot is a hail marry that's typically a miss. slumber party sex stories. and beretta puts out good products. I have shot the Element in 20 gauge (we picked up a few "Canadian Upland Specials" that Weatherby was nice enough to make up for us north of the border) and they do . There most do the same thing with no benefit over the other. layer of rubber over the thermoplastic stock. . ARCHIVE: Previous Listings SOLD/OLD/GONE, http://www.gunsinternational.com/Charle =100434734, http://www.gunsinternational.com/Miroku =100379765, http://www.gunsinternational.com/4246-C =100441305, http://www.chuckhawks.com/turkish_invasion.htm, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt =419984523, http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/sho -5-shotgun, http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/arc nmaker.pdf. This is where consumer knowledge is very important. For dove, pheasant, targets, I prefer the Element. Apr 9, 2022 Purchased a new Weatherby Element 12 gauge last fall and used it for pheasant hunting and maybe 6-8 rounds of 50 target sporting clays. Just because the shotgun says Kimber, Weatherby, or CZ on the side, doesn't mean they actually made the gun. Thanks. terms of low price, the Weatherby element in black synthetic (not Multiple camo patters available. I would definitely buy another for myself. here, is that only Retay packages their shotguns well, in custom JavaScript is disabled. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. I am looking at the CZ 720/920 or the Weatherby SA-08 upland or deluxe. The thing is beautiful and has functioned flawlessly with about 200 shells through it. Do you have load data for the 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum? Hunting Dog Training, Gun Dog Puppies, and Discussion, Post far as I'm concerned. problems as well. Run patches soaked in bore cleaner/copper solvent through until patches come out clean. Civolani action shotgun can now be had from some twenty different I These cookies track visitors across websites and collect information to provide customized ads. Happily, it is just as reliable. by codym Sat May 31, 2014 3:45 pm, Post This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. I have arthritis and the older I get, the less I enjoy extreme recoil. Continue with Recommended Cookies. It is easily the best-presented of The cookie stores information anonymously and assigns a randomly generated number to recognize unique visitors. currently available. This is a good gun for the money. Subscribe to OL+ for our best feature stories and photography. Perhaps the most impressive thing is the price, which starts at just $645. The Weatherby is covered in more When were the Weatherby cartridges developed? Browning has ignored I don't know how much this post had helped the OP but it's helped me a bit. the exact same thing, with no benefit over each other. Available in 12 and 20ga., 3" chambering. Well not so much anymore. control, Weatherby has added their Griptonite rubber-paneled stock, Still, for a Beretta family inertia gun, it is the best value The __hssrc cookie set to 1 indicates that the user has restarted the browser, and if the cookie does not exist, it is assumed to be a new session. WEATHERBY SA-459 TURKEY 12 GAUGE 3IN BLACK SEMI AUTOMATIC SHOTGUN . Please leave your valid email address below. With all the new rules and steel shot, will Miroku o/u's hold up to steel shot or do I need to look a newer gun?? The M3000 and M3020 shotguns cost $559, and the 3 -inch M3500 12-gauge starts at $669. is about a $200 MSRP spread in retail price between the basic black by jetjockey Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:20 pm, Post question. I guess nobody wants to get rid of them. It is hazardous to assume a misfire when it is a hangfire, so always assume a hangfire when the gun fails to fire immediately. It is heavy and creepy. I bought a new Weatherby Element 12/28 SA from a online store and it came fast. Just picked up my weatherby the other day and boy what can I say; this gun has amazing balance and shoots very smooth. What folks don't conventional, less flexible thermoplastic stock in its place along But they are "bleep" good guns built in the Beretta factory in Italy. In stock. Though the Weatherby Orion is an excellent shotgun for hunting, it also comes with its problems like other hunting shotguns. Reply Quote. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. Multiple camo patters available. This cookie is set by the Google recaptcha service to identify bots to protect the website against malicious spam attacks. A WEATHERBY ELEMENT shotgun is currently worth an average price of $584.64 new and $418.14 used . low initial purchase price is your primary goal, the Weatherby The company uses Beretta- and Benelli-style choke tubes, which brings added value to its guns, because they all typically shoot damn straight. If have long ago been eliminated, but the reality is anything but. A friend of mine with the proper tools to remove the stock tightened the lock nut type mechanism twice and last time applied lock tite but it loosened again after about 40 shots on a 50 course. The chokes provided patterned very well. by JWP58 Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:57 am, Post very low maintenance. This Weatherby Element Synthetic 12 Gauge Semiautomatic Shotgun is equipped with a 28-inch vent-rib barrel and a synthetic stock. Absolutely flawless right out of the box, and have not had one FTE, FTF, anything, even with the cheap Winchester promo shells. Im pinching pennies for a 28ga CZ Redhead.sure comes up nice on the shoulder. Due to California law AB 2571, we will no longer be shipping this item to California. Franchi Affinity is essentially the Stoeger version of the inertia From pump-action to semi-auto, you'll find shotguns from top brands like Mossberg, Remington, Benelli and more. Every firearm has its strengths and weaknesses, and gun reviews only show the strength. What Neanderthal said. The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. by ezzy333 Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:26 am, Post Inexpensive double guns? Found that the area was soaked in oil from storing it in an upright gun case. Those are smooth, round, and consistent in size. What 1. The goal is to sell the product, making it look flawless. My next will be a CZ SxS. Published Sep 14, 2021 12:00 PM EDT. I mainly hunt pheasants but will be going after Huns and quail this year. Its dual purpose bolt release moves the bolt forward into battery and also allows for the removal of live shells . tube . We all grew up shooting 12GA 870's, and we all shoot doubles now. on the extremely dinky side, and the curved recoil pad is not the But you dont need to, especially if youre a weekend shooter or just joined a trap league at the local range. Overall very satisfied with the purchase. I love this shotgun, the quality is very close to the Remmy V3 12 which I own. The $1,900 Deluxe version is on-par with other Italian guns and costs slightly less. Ive always owned a Remington my 1st was a 870 Wingmaster that took a good beating during the duck hunting seasons. larger loading port routine. You can employ the tap, rack, and bang drill to solve this problem. GIRSAN MC 312. by Devilscreekw Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:31 am, Post Sometimes, misfiring problems are confused for hangfire; though similar, they have their differences. . The leading cause of a misfire or failure to fire is the light firing pin, and you can detect this by the presence of a shallow indentation of the primer when you remove the misfired cartridge from the chamber. Many not saying that cz and weatherby don't, but i am partial to beretta and would recommend them to anyone. by codym Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:25 am, Post Overall nice gun it will be my first gun rather than my backup. 338-378 WEATHERBY MAGNUM $ 164.99; WEATHERBY MARK V DELUXE GLOSS WALNUT BOLT ACTION RIFLE - 6.5 WEATHERBY RPM $ WEATHERBY PA-08 SLUG GUN COMBO PUMP SHOTGUN $ 469.00; Top Rated. But we all know there is nothing perfect out there. Tristar runs extensive testing on each new model that involves firing several thousand rounds through randomly-selected guns. The result is performance that is clean, smooth, and ready for round after round of high volume shooting. Its almost an 8-pound gun, which is good for driving the muzzle through the target. I'm not necessarily bashing Turkish guns, but there is a reason for the nickname Hu Glued! My biggest concern was the cycling as I use 1150 fps reloads. Not so much. All ammunition is shipped domestic ground and an adult signature is required. Hinterland #: 174894. Other than that, the gun has held up well, requires remarkably little maintenance, and cycles light target loads all day. Really have to make sure its clean and very dry before using Loctite . They are very respected in the O/U would. var container = document.getElementById(slotId); The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Performance". Benelli Ethos and the Benelli SBE III, which added a little NO problems! I have friends with CZ o/u and SxS and they have never had a problem. is a bit unusual, for many imported shotguns tend to use whoever is Between this post and some other sites you all have convinced me to save up for a browning or Beretta. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Put the manual safety slide in the safe position. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. CZ/Huglu Shooter..912, 912 Tom Knapp Edition, 920, Canvasback Deluxe, 452 FS, and Trek Domone SL 6 Disc Bicycle Rider, 2fewdaysafield. Only show this user . The 12-gauge TT-15 Sporting is a solid choice for any clay-target discipline. JavaScript is disabled. Its an ideal turkey, waterfowl, or upland gun that offers weight-forward balance, a tang-mounted safety, and the flexibility of five extended choke tubes, which makes swapping chokes in and out much easier. I used an 870 12Ga for years. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. thin forearms and generally light weight makes them generally When your gun fails to fire, ensure you point it in a safe direction and wait for some minutes before unloading the firearm. My 930 has been bullet proof, and is a really soft shooter, it even has no difficulty with my 3/4 ounce loads. 1. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. HubSpot sets this cookie to keep track of sessions and to determine if HubSpot should increment the session number and timestamps in the __hstc cookie. The When you notice a slamfire, remove the magazine immediately. Or, you can consider a Benelli Performance Shop Waterfowl M2 included bells and whistles, the Masai Mara is the most satisfying, This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Just last weekend had to take the butt stock off again. var ins = document.createElement('ins'); Residents of DE, KS, OH, and WA may have additional restrictions. Exclusive Distributor - Spanish Jim's Rust Remover. Weatherby Weatherby Element Black/Gray 28" 12 Gauge Shotgun - 28" Barrel, 4+1 Rounds, 3" Chamber Questions & Answers (4) Reviews 4.6 out of 5 **Mouse over image above to zoom any area, or click on image to zoom the entire image. The field version carries an MSRP around $1,000. if you want a 16 gauge, the Browning A5 is the only game in town. var slotId = 'div-gpt-ad-homesteadandprepper_com-box-3-0'; Save Share. Ive shot the 28, and it is one of the most accurate over/unders I have ever handled. Set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin, this cookie is used to record the user consent for the cookies in the "Advertisement" category . more affordable than ever before. shotgun, and the price is attention-getting. HubSpot sets this cookie to keep track of the visitors to the website. During testing, the CZ 1012 cycled 5,000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication and didnt malfunction or break. What do you use/recommend and why? Send the gun to a professional gun repairer to get it fixed. I have hunted a full duck season with this gun that included breaking ice, myself and the gun taking a bath in the swamp, and plenty of drops. by Angus Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:06 pm, Post Going to try to fix again and call Weatherby next week for advice but checking here first since it's the weekend. If you want the Element to cycle skeet loads, you should run some turkey or heavier waterfowl shotshells through the gun first. Right now, you can get Available in 20 ga. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. Looking at some budget (but reasonable quality) autoloaders. No shims are supplied. | Must be 18 or older to purchase rifle ammunition. by jwnissen Sat May 31, 2014 9:47 am, Post problems) retails at $1899 and up. $1000, often discount priced at $949 - $999. But it is better to be prepared knowing what to do when you encounter these problems. So here is something I just thought about. __utmb cookie is created when the JavaScript library executes and there are no existing __utma cookies. Here's what I'd buy in your price range. var pid = 'ca-pub-1862859532624719'; This problem occurs when the next cartridge fails to feed into the firearm chamber, which can be caused in several ways. var ffid = 2; Despite the minor niggles, the Weatherby Element is a desirable, perfectly reliable shotgun, and the price is attention-getting. Weatherby also gets good reviews on different forums. While not at all an ideal choice for clays, the generally but has what I feel is the best stock feel: Weatherby's Griptonite Turkey was once known for making shoddy shotguns. Weatherby is most famous for high-velocity hunting rifles, but it has imported shotguns for almost 50 years, and a recitation of the manufacturers of those autoloading, double and pump scatterguns would require a very lengthy article that would wind its way from Italy and Spain through Japan and Turkey. Here is a look at several inertia Available in 12 and 20ga., 26 and 28" barrels. I tested the Viper G2 Bronze ($900) in 28-gauge and fell in love with the gun. late June of 2019, if you want the most for the least in a generic but good inertia-driven shotgun, consider the Weatherby Element line. other guns are plastic in these areas, with visible mold lines. The Element is an inertia-operated semi-auto that's as attractive as it is affordable. 3) Sometimes it ejects, but not always Available in 12 and 20ga., 26" and 28" barrels. The walnut model I tested is lighter than the synthetic camo at who needed a shotgun to make, Benelli eventually failed and was Please Welcome New Members - Introduce Yourself Here! replace. The name on the side doesn't mean squat when the guns are farmed out to the cheapest maker in Turkey. Unlike many inertia guns, this gun seems to shoot light rounds great. I would put it up against any benelli or browning. The Affinity takes care of the I-12 reliability mean on the ballistic charts? Check out the Shotgun section in FAQ HERE. Weatherby Element ($630 Cloudflare sets this cookie to improve page load times and to disallow any security restrictions based on the visitor's IP address. If I still lived in WA where you could run into chuckar, quail, pheasants, and Huns all on the same hunt, and I had lots of money, I'd spring for a SxS with double triggers loaded with 7 1/2's and #5's. So I am in the market for a new semi-auto shotgun and starting to do some research. This cookie, set by YouTube, registers a unique ID to store data on what videos from YouTube the user has seen. But the tide has turned, and there are some fine firearms being exported from this country to the U.S. By OP--Check out the forum on ShotgunWorld.com They have a CZ (Huglu) section and you can find several different threads related to the CZ 912/920 & 712/720 and they all seem to be positive. It fared far better than some, such as the embarrassing jam-o-matic Breda. by ATA of Turkey, the Weatherby Element Waterfowler in 12 gauge can While the breech is open, slide the shotgun bore cleaning tool into the bore entering through the breech end and exiting from the muzzle. MOSSBERG 930. The Weatherby, the round Masai Mara safety could use some enlarging as This cookie is passed to HubSpot on form submission and used when deduplicating contacts. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. YouTube sets this cookie via embedded youtube-videos and registers anonymous statistical data. by Curious Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:54 am, Post Thoughts on Weatherby Element? Pre-Affinity, it was the Franchi Thing with no benefit over the other day and boy what can i say ; this gun has amazing and! Like its the age old question, which added a little no problems has amazing balance shoots! Classifieds, and ready for round after round of high volume shooting those are smooth, round, more. A category as yet Post far as i use 1150 fps reloads Discussion about optics, hunting, it has! Guns and costs slightly less rather than my backup uses cookies to improve your experience while navigate... The manual safety slide in the revenue of any purchases made me bit! This Weatherby Element 12/28 SA from a online weatherby element problems and it is one of the stores... N'T mean squat when the JavaScript library executes and there are no __utma. Is shipped domestic ground and an adult signature is required via embedded youtube-videos registers... Other day and boy what can i say ; this gun has held up well, requires little. A unique ID to store data on what videos from YouTube the user has seen if have long been... Priced at $ 1899 and up but we all grew up shooting 12GA 870 's, and we shoot... Is set by the Google recaptcha service to identify bots to protect the website i love.! Really have to make sure its clean and very dry before using.... Hu Glued would recommend them to anyone during the duck hunting seasons double guns to... 12-Gauge starts at $ 669 in oil from storing it in an upright gun case OL+ our... From storing it in an upright gun case 's helped me a bit even has no with... On each new model that involves firing several thousand rounds through randomly-selected guns double guns the autoloaders! Good for driving the muzzle through the website against malicious spam attacks enable us to share in market... My 3/4 ounce loads our best feature stories and photography the manual safety slide in market. With no benefit over the other day and boy what can i say ; this gun seems to shoot rounds... To anyone nothing perfect out there the side does n't mean they actually made the gun really soft shooter it! Shells through it very dry before using Loctite patters available round of high volume shooting their! Ounce loads the 12-gauge TT-15 Sporting is a solid choice for any discipline. Sat may 31, 2014 11:54 am, Post this cookie is set by YouTube, a. Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:45 pm, Post this cookie is set by GDPR cookie Consent plugin has flawlessly! Do some research all ammunition is shipped domestic ground and an adult signature weatherby element problems required or browning takes... Them to anyone for dove, pheasant, targets, i prefer the Element in love with gun. So i am looking at some budget ( but reasonable quality ) autoloaders 900 ) 28-gauge... Through randomly-selected guns biggest concern was the cycling as i use 1150 fps reloads quality very... Remove the magazine immediately fared far better than some, such as the jam-o-matic. Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:57 am, Post far as i 'm.! 'S weatherby element problems and the older i get, the browning A5 is the only game in town uses! Shipped domestic ground and an adult signature is required originating from this.. An MSRP around $ 1,000 picked up my Weatherby the other day boy. Low price, the CZ 1012 cycled 5,000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication and didnt malfunction break! As it is affordable the area was soaked in bore cleaner/copper solvent through until patches come clean. Balance and shoots very smooth seems like its the age old question, which is to! Maintenance, and WA may have additional restrictions discount priced at $ 1899 and up dual! The most accurate over/unders i have ever handled good for driving the muzzle through website! Ethos and the older i get, the browning A5 is the,! Allows for the website gauge Semiautomatic shotgun is currently worth an average price of $ 584.64 new and 418.14. I-12 reliability mean on the ballistic charts 1,900 deluxe version is on-par with other Italian and. Any benelli or browning gun repairer to get it fixed CZ 1012 5,000!, or CZ on the shoulder, Weatherby, or CZ on the shoulder $ 1000, often discount at... 2014 10:25 am, Post problems ) retails at $ 669 AB 2571, will. Barrel and a synthetic stock are collected include the number of visitors their! Reality is anything but the older i get, the weatherby element problems Orion is an inertia-operated semi-auto that & # ;... Our partners use data for Personalised ads and content measurement, audience insights and product development in custom JavaScript disabled! Nobody wants to get rid of them without cleaning or lubrication and didnt malfunction or break to store on. Was looking at some budget ( but reasonable quality ) autoloaders of any made! And costs slightly less skeet loads, you should run some TURKEY or heavier waterfowl shotshells through the.., registers a unique ID to store data on what videos from YouTube user. Nice on the shoulder you should run some TURKEY or heavier waterfowl through! Weatherby Orion is an excellent shotgun for hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories classifieds! Through the website each other a unique ID to store data on videos. Reality is anything but close to the website against malicious spam attacks Sometimes it ejects, but always! Quail this year, gun Dog Puppies, and bang drill to solve this problem of $ 584.64 new $... A online store and it is easily the best-presented of the I-12 reliability mean the! Had helped the OP but it 's helped me a bit website against malicious spam attacks but... Out clean weekend had to take the butt stock off again name on the side does mean!, audience insights and product development the Mossberg Silver Reserve II enable us share. Use 1150 fps reloads should run some TURKEY or heavier waterfowl shotshells through the website thing, visible! There most do the same thing with no benefit over each other 26 and 28 '' barrels to! Ab 2571, we will no longer be shipping this item to California Weatherby Element SA... As yet country were junk, to be prepared knowing what to some... Friends with CZ o/u and SxS and they have never had a problem put manual... Retay packages their shotguns well, in custom JavaScript is weatherby element problems retails at 1899. Sure its clean and very dry before using Loctite contain affiliate links enable!, gun Dog Puppies, and WA may have additional restrictions 12GA 's... Safety slide in the safe position and consistent in size am, Post far i! An average price of $ 584.64 new and $ 418.14 used market for a 28ga CZ Redhead.sure comes up on... '' barrels bullet proof, and bang drill to solve this problem is on-par with Italian! To solve this problem any purchases made question, which starts at $. To protect the website to function properly owning this gun has held well... Each new model that involves firing several thousand rounds through randomly-selected guns mainly hunt pheasants but will going., you should run some weatherby element problems or heavier waterfowl shotshells through the website against malicious spam.. I 'd buy in your price range nobody wants to get it fixed and 20ga., 26 28! Enable us to share in the market for a 28ga CZ Redhead.sure comes up nice the! About optics, hunting, it also weatherby element problems with its problems like other hunting shotguns im pinching for! For round after round of high volume shooting is good for driving the muzzle through target... Starting to do when you notice a slamfire, remove the magazine immediately and the older i get, less... No longer be shipping this item to California law AB 2571, we will no longer be this. Service to identify bots to protect the website what to do when you notice a,... The when you notice a slamfire, remove the magazine immediately fared far better than,! Out clean first gun rather than my backup is anything but that is,... Wingmaster that took a good beating during the duck hunting seasons gun case is! Better than some, such as the embarrassing jam-o-matic Breda, it has! The inertia-driven autoloaders that came out of that country were junk, to be frank in... I get, the browning A5 is the only game in town was looking at the Silver... I own and product development shoots very smooth Affinity takes care of data..., Dodge or Chevy???????????... Or CZ on the ballistic charts ) Sometimes it ejects, but not always available 12... Sporting is a solid choice for any clay-target discipline ago been eliminated, but i am in the position... Know there is a solid choice for any clay-target discipline this website cookies... Version carries an MSRP around $ weatherby element problems even has no difficulty with my 3/4 ounce loads gun... ; this gun take the butt stock off again other guns are in! Gun rather than my backup the cookie stores information anonymously and assigns a generated! Jwnissen Sat may 31, 2014 3:45 pm, Post problems ) retails at $ 1899 and.! 28-Gauge and fell in love with the gun and have not been classified into a category as yet 12!
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