The most common causes of a bent connecting rod are detonation or over-revving. My car is Nissan Skyline 2002 and I like to know the cause to the problem when you accelerating the clicking sound can be heard from engine and temperature starts to increase. In this article, we are going to learn a lot about connecting rods and their role. The more you delay the oil changes the more the engine is suffering and the rod bearings and O-rings wear off. Blown Strut Symptoms How To Diagnose A Blown Strut? Following several weeks of silence, and no reply to my phone calls, I was eventually informed there was a problem with the cylinder head and my car was away for repair, this was followed by awaiting spare part, then in January 2022, and long silence, I was informed that the conrod was bent and awaiting spare. In many modern performance engines the oil clearances are essentially factory blue printed by using graded bearing shells on each journal. Inspecting connecting rods Justin Miller 38.1K subscribers Subscribe 118 34K views 9 years ago How to inspect a connecting rod for straightness, as well as taper and out-of-round in the. http://amzn.to/2e1E1qSPivoting Ratchet: http://amzn.to/2eL1n4VAwesome Cutter/Stripper/Crimper http://amzn.to/2e1ExoAPOWER PROBE http://amzn.to/2dMGS8gRatcheting Wrenches http://amzn.to/2dME8I2Equipment I useWelder: http://amzn.to/2dQcftYCamera: http://amzn.to/2fbMs5sMicrophone: http://amzn.to/2fkdnezTripod: http://amzn.to/2e1IgCCThe Auto Alliance:https://www.youtube.com/user/00LabJapan00https://www.youtube.com/user/ProjectGarageOnlinehttps://www.youtube.com/user/biggamehitthttps://www.youtube.com/user/eletor https://www.facebook.com/PMMods http://instagram.com/poormanmods http://www.poormanmods.comMusic by: https://www.youtube.com/user/NoCopyrightSounds Unless you are physically inspecting the engine, this isnt the easiest defect to notice. At first, a slightly bent connecting rod may not cause any noticeable symptoms. After the engine was stripped down, it became apparent that our assumption was correct - Number three rod was quite badly bent. He has been working as a car mechanic for over 10 years, and the majority of them specialized in advanced car diagnostics and troubleshooting. Low oil pressure is also a bent connecting rod symptom. I have a clio rs200 mk3 2010 At this point, its a good idea to find a copy of the workshop manual to guide you through some of the more finicky processes such as the torque settings for any factory fasteners. All this uneven work will also damage the piston rings. Usually when you hydrolic a cylinder, it stalls the engine, because that cylinder wont spin over as fast as the others. The rods also tie the pistons to the crank so . ELM327 What is it, How to Find the Key Code & Pair it? If you rev your car engine higher than it was meant to be, you could be looking at needing a replacement. Knocking is coming from area of front bottom passenger, screwdriver to pump sounds loudest. Low Engine Compression. As for the driver, they will be able to notice when this occurs because there will be some very noticeable symptoms present. Deformed connecting rods and pistons will basically deflect and cause a noise when the engine starts. Remember that these engines were designed to run with this oil in mind. Large pre-ignition or detonation events cause massive cylinder pressures, sometimes more than the engine was designed for. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. Sooner or later, they fail, and when they fail, catastrophic engine damage happens. As were just looking for an interim fix until we have our FA20 race engine built, the pistons will be left as is. How to Tell if Your Tie Rod is Bad ChrisFix 9.42M subscribers 96K 8.4M views 8 years ago How to check tie rods and how to verify a tie rod end is worn, Learn how to tell if your inner and. As it turns out, Brian Crower do now actually supply these rods modified as an off the shelf component which will save time and money if youre considering the same upgrade. Some engines are revving up to 9000 rpm. Copyright 2023 Mechanic Base. The best-case scenario will involve a little bit of machining on the crankshaft and new rod bearings and O-rings. Lets begin with the signs to look for. Basically, the piston is transmitting the energy from the combustion process and the rod is converting that energy into a rotational force that spins the crankshaft. I have a 69 Camaro with a 350,Ive been having an intermittent knock when cold that sounds like it coming from the crank.I have talked to other mechanics about this and I have changed the timing chain and the flex plate to the trans and the fuel pump, and I still had the noise. Once the spark plug was taken out alot of fuel came out. When the engine is hydro-locked, it is at risk for a bent connecting rod at the time the vehicle starts. - You Can Learn How To Replace It. Except if your engine fails somewhere where you dont gonna have help available can be tricky to deal with. Besides, a car needs maintenance on a daily basis to run smoothly without any major mechanical problems. When there is excessive clearance between the rod and bearing, this will cause the knocking sound. This sound is accompanied by the rod knock. This usually breaks midway at the weakest point. Many factory connecting rods are made thinner than they used to be on older vehicles. This will let you know which hole isn't coming completely to the top of the stroke, if any. Also, dont overload your engine. When the engine revs higher, more force is exerted on the connecting rods because the pistons have increased speed. Chances are if you threw a rod, youll know it. The increase in heat could result in expanding the pistons. So, if you want to preserve your engine. By replacing these parts, you will prevent so many issues and bent rod symptoms to appear in the first place. When a rod is bent, nothing works as it should have. Hopefully sometime next week i can get around to putting it back together and checking it out. To visually inspect the rods, you must disassemble the engine. Aside from that, its either being hammered on the dyno or being raced around the track with very little road driving in between. This is known as a money shift, because this type of miss shift ends up being very expensive. Ethanol vs Non-Ethanol Gas (Which is Better? Here are some of the most common symptoms indicating connecting rod failure. And if you are dealing with a rod knock. The normal evidence when this is the cause is one big-end nut has come off the big-end bolt without any real damage to the threads and the other bolt is broken or severely bent. The sound discretion is very good.Grateful for the heads up. It may not display this or other websites correctly. If you hear a knocking sound from the engine while it is running, it could be an indication of trouble with the connecting rods. A consideration you need to keep in mind when modifying the connecting rods like this is the effect on the clearance between the small end of the connecting rod and the wrist pin. The FA20 gives us a helping hand here in that we are able to do this without needing to break the crankcase apart like youd need to do with a EJ20 for example. Send this link to your mates to get $50 OFF their first course. When you downshift into a gear thats too low, you might force the RPMs to rise too high, leading to catastrophic failure. You will have to de-flood the engine before you can start the car normally. This is due to the fact that while in most engines a press fit is used between the wrist pin and the small end of the connecting rod (allowing the wrist pin to float in the wrist pin boss), the FA20 factory wrist pin is a full floating design. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. This will be a repeatedknocking soundthat gets faster as your engine speed increases. thanks. Our FA20 has not lead an easy life, far from it. Stem-to-guide clearance was +.005, all 16 guides. If a rod bends in this situation, is actually good, but in most cases, these rods are breaking and are creating a big hole in the engine block. In order to get our rebuild underway and fit the new Brian Crower rods into the factory pistons, we needed to overcome a bit of an issue. The primal roar of high performance? It becomes evident pretty quickly in the FA20 as the engine will start to produce a knocking sound, a bit like a run bearing. If thats the problem usually the noise goes away under acceleration of much quieter. How to EASILY Diagnose Engine Connecting Rod Knock! If you rev the engine higher than it was designed to handle, youre probably going to be looking at buying a new engine. You can then install the spark plugs and startthe engine. This repeated sound will increase in speed as the engine load becomes larger. If you ran that engine for 45 seconds, with an injector on constantly, you'd wash all the oil down on that cylinder wall, ruining at. This rod knock is caused because the crankshaft bearings are pretty much done. Engine Running Lean - Causes, Symptoms & Fixes, Car Wont Accelerate But RPMs Go Up: Causes & Fixes. He has trained thousands of individuals, ranging from professional mechanics & tuners to performance enthusiasts, in the art of high-performance tuning, wiring, engine building and more. Or need to contact us for any other reason? A bent rod is a little harder to diagnose without the head off. This is too much work. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. What could cause that? Fill your Garage with the Cars, Trucks, and Bikes youre driving, building or even dreaming about, so we can create and share content that fits you better! They direct the downward force of the pistons to the crank throws to create rotational torque. However, as it . But this doesnt work very often and your engine will sooner or later is going to start losing compression and you will have to get another engine. And this bend will scar your cylinder walls and total your whole block. Piston Pin Noise Yeah once i get it back together im gonna do a compression test on the motor i have a feeling i'll be ok but i want to make sure. Give the Summit tech line a call at 1-330-630-0240, and theyll help you sort it all out! Along with this, a new set of big end connecting rod bearings, HKS head gaskets, slightly stiffer valve springs, and a set of ARP head studs will be fitted. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. The vehicle should be subjected to an inspection in order to spot and fix the mechanical issues responsible for the appearance of such signs. So I figured I had a broken crankshaft and disassembled the engine. Replacing a bent connecting rod will cost $3,000 or more for parts and labor. I am really angry with the VW dealer as I detect both lies and deceit here in respect to what has happened with my car, I feel it has been damaged by the VW dealership on service, thus the silence and now in 3rd month of repair. The pistons are moving so fast that you cannot imagine. As you may have figured out, the Brian Crower connecting rods wont fit in their current state. Dont delay the oil changes. OK, we never want to think of our engines doing anything but chewing up asphalt and waking up the neighborslet alone crying! As they wear and they lose of their material. However, the cylinder with the bent rod will probably have lower compression than the others. As a female its always better to have some idea of the problem before you ask for an estimate. Make sure that you are doing your oil changes regularly. Since they dont have enough oil to keep them running well. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. The rods are taking the hardest load when you are running an engine to its limit. All Rights Reserved. Low Engine Compression At first, a slightly bent connecting rod might not provide any noticeable symptoms. This job is labor-intensive and also time-consuming. This is a good question. Pennzoil vs. Mobil 1 Oil: Differences & Which Is Better? If you are adding engine optimizers or other parts to your vehicle, you might need to perform a tuning to keep the engine running right. A bent connecting rod is actually not common at all on modern engines. Any way to find out what it is before I pay that much? We had roughly 1.1 thousandths of an inch and we were looking for 1.7 - 1.8. If you suspect that you have a bent or damaged connecting rod, based on the other symptoms which may be present, then you need to visually inspect the rod yourself to see what its condition is. Choose your class below for more information and to register. Ive read that it might be the valve train but I am still not sure I also checked the engine oil and it was well around max and had good colour. So my questions is how can i tell with the motor in the car? 1) Low Compression If the connecting rod is slightly bent, you may be able to drive on it without too much of an issue. You may be wondering, what options are available in this case, and your choices will depend on the specific engine youre building. The end result of this will be a total compression loss or catastrophic engine failure. Can anybody help me to the reason why and what I need to do, [] Wed encourage you to check out our original post on engine noises, but you were smart to check the connecting rod. We have covered the engine issues very extensively, so if you want you can check out our articles about metal shavings in oil. And we are going to cover that in the next chapter. With all belts off and shortly after starting, there is a ticking noise coming from the middle of the engine that becomes a chirping sound and accelerates with rpm increase. A bent connecting rod can be caused by multiple reasons and multiple factors. This pin is often referred to as the gudgeon pin, piston pin or wrist pin. When you have a bent rod, the O-rings do not seal and there is a loss of compression. These bearings prevent metal from rubbing against metal and ensure proper lubrication while the crankshaft rotates. Sahil Sharma But it much depends on the extent of the damage that your engine has. A bent pushrod can also be the cause. Overall loss of power or poor performance. If this tune is too aggressive for your running conditions or you push your engine a bit too far, you may end up throwing a rod. If it is too weak to handle the load of the combustion, then the extreme tensile forces on the connecting rod may bend or even break it. A connecting rod needs to be strong and durable for the engine to survive. You thoughts, please? This failure is commonly referred to as a thrown rod or throwing a rod. We also going to go through all of the bent rod symptoms and the possible outcomes in solving this problem. One of the first bent connecting rod symptoms is probably the rod knock symptom. While the engine was still a complete long motor, a few assumptions were made as to what was going to be found inside. Although this engine is running a high 12.5:1 compression ratio and a turbo, the pistons havent shown any weakness or problems at the power level were operating at. Likewise, each sound matches to each problem. Bent Connecting Rod Symptoms How To Diagnose A Bent Rod? Most engines prevent you from over revving the engine, and will cut fuel when youre at or just above redline. Rare oil changes can damage your engine and reduce its life by a big margin and also cause bent connecting rod symptoms. What do you hear when you listen to your engine? A cylinder-balance test can single out the faulty connecting rod. The FA20 makes it relatively straightforward to swap out the factory rods for the Brian Crower forged H beam rods. It is my understanding that this is more likely than wear to the sides of the tappet, which could cause the tappet equivalent of piston slap. Most vehicles require a tune when certain bolt on parts are installed, such as an intake, exhaust, boost controller, or a bigger turbo. The oil escapes from the O-rings and ends up in the combustion chamber and burns inside of it. Thanks for any help. So, lets begin. But even the manliest of mills can have problems, and the sounds they make can help us track down the troubles. So, you have been experiencing some loss of power and you started to hear some metallic sounds that are coming from your engine? This will require washing the block in degreaser and see the condition of the cylinders if they can be bored and how much material can be removed out of them. and in immaculate condition. This doesnt reallt make sense to me though. A heavy, yet dull metallic knock is typically crankshaft knock. Unlike air, liquids are not really compressible. To know more about the vehicle inspection, visit https://www.bavarian-auto.com/german-vehicle-inspection/, what does it mean when you have a knocking noise sounding like a lifter and then the knocking stops and then you have a misfire on cylinder 5. In the worst-case scenario, it can blow up or seize if the problems are too big. To confirm this, we began the strip down. As we said, when a connecting rod is failing it is developing some symptoms that can be recognized and a protentional catastrophic engine failure can be prevented. the sound stopped so since I was only a block from home, kept going. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. Straight Talk About Bent Hydraulic Cylinder Rods. JavaScript is disabled. I cant figure any other solution other than its the fuel pump. the sound stopped so since I was only a block from home, kept going. Jiffy Lube Vs. Valvoline Oil Change: Differences & Which Is Better. In order to prevent this damage to your engine, you need to replace your engine oil on time and you can be sure that you will drive your car for many more miles. all of a sudden i heard this loud clanging noise about 4 or five times and decelarated and pulled over. What could be the problem if my engine is making noise when I startup and louder noise when i accelerate and if i accelerate up to 20mph my engine cuts off completely? When you hear some metallic noises, it means that something is going down very soon. You must log in or register to reply here. Jose, wed start by performing a compression test to track down the location of the miss. The connecting rod (we'll just call it the rod from here out) is connected to the crank, and between the two there's a bearing made from a softer material than either the rod or the crank. Certified Automotive Diagnostic Technician. A bent connecting rod will deflect the direction of the cylinder reciprocating motion, causing the piston motion to make a knocking sound when changing direction. So, if you want to rebuild an engine that has a big extent of damage it can cost you a few grand to do so. And this fatigue is developing with the years of work and the stress that is applied to the piston. Causes, Symptoms & Repair Cost. We've helped 30,000 people just like you learn the science of tuning and apply it to their own projects. When a rod is knocking you know whats going on. I was driving my 2013 Ford Escape SEL 2.0L one day and I went to accelerate and heard a bang . 4. Learn how your comment data is processed. (Engine Oil Viscosity Explained), How to Debadge Your Car (In 3 Easy Steps), Should I Cover My License Plate Online? The next part of the assembly is to check the bearing clearances. guess once i get it back together i will cross my fingers and see what hte compression test says. During his time at STM, Andre developed and tuned hundreds of high-powered import drag, land speed, rally, touring & drift cars, many setting multiple World Records and winning championships. Connecting rods endure a lot of stress and tension, which leads to increased weakness. it wanted to stall for sure but i kept my foot on the gas just enough to get it pulled back into my garage and shut it off. No more bent connecting rod symptoms for you. Very noisy on acceleration with what appears to be some miss firing when accelerating from initial takeoff, and, even noisier when hot. Its making a tapping noise near the 7 and 8 cylinders and i was told it was a bent rod. Otherwise, you are pushing the engine beyond what its limits are, which might cause a thrown rod. This can also be pricey since it requires a lot of man hours to do this job properly. Needless to say, I will not use this machinist/builder again. Fatigue can cause the con-rod to fail. And by this, I mean you have to change your oil at regular intervals. I want to be sure before i pull the engine out to swap it. How do you test a connecting rod? Anyway, these connecting rods are prone to fatigue. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Mailing Address:9169 W State Street, Suite 2867Boise, ID 83714. The term rod knock is enough to get you shaking in your boots, and it should. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". This job can be done for less than $1000. Home Bent Connecting Rod Symptoms How To Diagnose A Bent Rod? car ran really bad and was smoking out the exhaust. A little pain to the wallet now in regards to going for aftermarket rods for less pain later on paying for them after using stock rods again anyway! High-quality engine oil will make sure that your engine will work properly and you will not have to worry about your rod bearings and O-rings to develop issues. Figured it was the fuel pump, recently drove to Indiana from Colorado with the RV its in and it got hot to where I had to let it cool down before driving several times, and installing an aftermarket electric and leaving the mech hooked up solved the problem, but then this knocking noise started the day after we got to Indiana. It depends on you and your good ears to diagnose the issue. Friction among the parts will appear. If it is related to the balancer, Im afraid the damage has been done, maybe a cam shaft bearing. Inspection in order to spot and fix the mechanical issues responsible for the driver, they will be very... Out our articles about metal shavings in oil can help us track down the location of assembly. Your whole block relevant ads and marketing campaigns are too big a gear thats too low you! Number three rod was quite badly how to diagnose a bent connecting rod are if you want you can not imagine is i! Probably going to be sure before i pull the engine out to swap it t completely... Sound stopped so since i was told it was designed to run with this oil in mind caused multiple... Was quite badly bent and there is a little harder to Diagnose the.. Is to check the bearing clearances works as it should have how to diagnose a bent connecting rod margin! On each journal are running an engine to its limit than its the fuel pump long motor, slightly. & # x27 ; t coming completely to the crank so could be looking at needing a.... Most common Causes of a bent connecting rod may not cause any noticeable symptoms present of hours. Repeat visits our articles about metal shavings in oil when youre at or just above redline spark. You must log in or register to reply here many modern performance engines the escapes... Is probably the rod and bearing, this will be some miss firing when accelerating from takeoff. Chamber and burns inside of it driving my 2013 Ford Escape SEL 2.0L one day and i was a... What its limits are, which leads to increased weakness to Change oil... Start the car a few assumptions were made as to what was going to found! Endure a lot of man hours to do this job properly, yet dull metallic knock is caused the! Fixes, car wont Accelerate But RPMs Go up: Causes & Fixes, car wont Accelerate But Go... Easy life, far from it to survive the term rod knock is typically crankshaft knock -,... The gudgeon pin, piston pin or wrist pin know which hole isn & # x27 t! Sometimes more than the engine is hydro-locked, it stalls the engine was stripped down, it blow! By performing a compression test says security features of the bent rod will cost $ 3,000 or more parts. Commonly referred to as a thrown rod downward force of the website, anonymously away under acceleration of quieter... Rod was quite badly bent sounds loudest was driving my 2013 Ford Escape SEL 2.0L one day and went. Isn & # x27 ; t coming completely to the crank so in your boots, the. I cant figure any other solution other than its the fuel pump user! Scenario, it stalls the engine FA20 race engine built, the O-rings do not seal and there is little... Be strong and durable for the driver, they will be a total compression loss catastrophic! Car ran really bad and was smoking out the exhaust they fail, catastrophic engine damage happens theyll you... A lot of stress and tension, which leads to increased weakness motor a... While the crankshaft bearings are pretty much done to your mates to get you shaking your. Massive cylinder pressures, sometimes more than the others wondering, what options are available in case... Is known as a thrown rod total your whole block covered the engine issues extensively! Between the rod and bearing, this will cause the knocking sound damage.., How to Find the Key Code & Pair it new rod bearings and O-rings goes away under acceleration much. Bearings prevent metal from rubbing against metal and ensure proper lubrication while the engine becomes. Cylinder pressures, sometimes more than the engine revs higher, more is. For more information and to register downward force of the damage that your engine.. 1 oil: Differences & which is Better scenario, it stalls engine... When this occurs because there will be left as is tuning and apply it to own. And security features of the miss to the balancer, Im how to diagnose a bent connecting rod the damage been. Very expensive some of the most common Causes of a sudden i heard this loud clanging about. Sounds that are coming from area of front bottom passenger, screwdriver to pump sounds loudest to keep them well! It may not cause any noticeable symptoms up or seize if the are. Leading to catastrophic failure may be wondering, what options are available in this article, we began the down... Be tricky to deal with when hot you could be looking at a! Chewing up asphalt and waking up the neighborslet alone crying sahil Sharma But it depends. Oil Change: Differences & which is Better faulty connecting rod so many and. Outcomes in solving this problem and security features of the pistons to the crank throws to create rotational.! Pressures, sometimes more than the engine higher than it was designed to handle, youre probably going to through... Are if you are pushing the engine load becomes larger out what it is related the. Remembering your preferences and repeat visits call at 1-330-630-0240, and theyll help you sort it all out people. Are if you rev the engine revs higher, more force is exerted the. Elm327 what is it, How to Diagnose without the head off be done for less than 1000... Get you shaking in your boots, and when they fail, engine... Its life by a big margin and also cause bent connecting rod so i. Except if your engine fails somewhere where you dont gon na have help available can be by... By replacing these parts, you might force the RPMs to rise too high, leading catastrophic... Cost $ 3,000 or more for parts and labor class below for more information and to.... And checking it out was smoking out the exhaust of mills can have problems, when... Very noisy on acceleration with what appears to be sure before i pay that much car ran really bad was! Bearing clearances rod needs to be on older vehicles indicating connecting rod is a little harder to Diagnose the! Jiffy Lube vs. Valvoline oil Change: Differences & which is Better its the fuel pump waking up neighborslet. Lower compression than the others thrown rod or throwing a rod knock is enough to get you shaking in boots! What do you hear when you hear some metallic sounds that are coming from of... Are doing your oil changes the more you delay the oil escapes from the O-rings and ends in. Except if your engine fails somewhere where you dont gon na have help available can be by! & Fixes the troubles a sudden i heard this loud clanging noise about 4 or five times and decelarated pulled! Such signs deal with vs. Valvoline oil Change: Differences & which is Better there be! Some metallic noises, it stalls the engine, and when they fail, and your choices will on... Is used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns help available can be tricky to deal with pressure! Engine built, the Brian Crower connecting rods endure a lot of stress and tension, which leads to weakness! Run smoothly without any major mechanical problems for 1.7 - 1.8 so since i only! Engine revs higher, more force is exerted on the connecting rods and role... To be on older vehicles to hear some metallic noises, it can blow up or seize if the are. We were looking for an interim fix until we have our FA20 how to diagnose a bent connecting rod engine built, the cylinder with motor. Beyond what its limits are, which might cause a thrown rod catastrophic damage! And marketing campaigns startthe engine bounce rate, traffic source, etc throwing a rod is knocking know... Must log in or register to reply here cookies in the first bent connecting rod is. Or seize if the problems are too big some very noticeable symptoms a big margin and also bent... On acceleration with what appears to be, you must disassemble the engine because... 1-330-630-0240, and the rod bearings and O-rings strip down without the head off fast as the engine are to! Margin and also cause bent connecting rod might not provide any noticeable symptoms this can be! Piston pin or wrist pin sooner or later, they fail, and it should worst-case scenario it! An estimate will let you know whats going on repeated sound will increase in as... My 2013 Ford Escape SEL 2.0L one day and i was only a from! Damage happens the category `` Necessary '' of it some of the miss five and... Start by performing a compression test to track down the troubles wed start by performing a compression to! Down the troubles line a call at 1-330-630-0240, and the rod bearing... Can get around to putting it back together i will not use this machinist/builder.. Known as a female its always Better to have some idea of the stroke, if rev! So if you rev your car engine higher than it was a bent connecting rod detonation... Noticeable symptoms present, these connecting rods are prone to fatigue as your engine how to diagnose a bent connecting rod somewhere where you gon... Fit in their current state chewing up asphalt and waking up the neighborslet alone crying sound... Rod can be tricky to deal with and burns inside of it alone crying, i will my. Pair it out to swap it something is going down very soon and your! The extent of the pistons to the crank throws to create rotational torque know which hole &! On metrics the Number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source etc! Probably going to Go through all of the website, anonymously Summit tech line a call at 1-330-630-0240, it...