Remove the plank so the splinter can be clearly seen. I realize people are suffering from pain and confusion, but now is not the time to be silent. Rich: And I think (as an atheist heathen) that what people really need is community, not so much the religious stuff. But theres a huge sunk cost in all the megas that dot the landscape. These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. Literally 15,000 people still attend Willow Campuses every single week, and by attending, they are absolutely saying this. And who on this blog doesnt love questions to be answered and truth to be revealed. Nelson, Dallas Jenkins, Garrett Higbee, Trei Tatum, and Rick Donald. Leila: he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. Sadly, many of us have learned our lesson the hard way, but it is not he who established these institutions and herded his people into them. . *you are Gods only light at the place of work. It wasnt all self-interest; they actually thought that good was being accomplished in spite of the bad conduct behind the scenes. We have millions of church folks in America who say they would die to protect the Bible, but not many actually read it! They are all one and the same. I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. (Not questioning its authenticity, just want to be clear on the context), What MacDonald has done must be documented, not only for the education of his next set of *followers* but for posterity. (Dee). I struggle to pray, to read the Bible. You have done some confession, but in private only. Jenkins says he has "great affection" for his time at Harvest, his work there, and even his time even knowing Driscoll. Max:in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture.I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. ++++++++++++++, so what? with or without religious trappings. On April 8, 2012, their desire became reality as the North Shore Campus launched its first service at the Winnetka Community House. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. Which almost conquered my soul. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Law Prof: If I understand your former function at Harvest (based on what you said in your letter) your job involved presenting and tightly controlling the Harvest narrative through media. Thats too deep to answer. all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. If only we would listen to what Lewis was saying, we might avoid these bullies going way back who latch onto Christianity because of all the naive fools who are suckers for the Gantry/MacDonald Schick. Thats a remarkably long time for the wheels to fall off. Sandy: In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? ME MAN! ), Law Prof: If we just got back to that model, the one the early church leaders generally followed . I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. Spend a moment praying to God before you begin reading. As of 2020, they now gather as City Line Church. They deliberately employ a faulty theology to ensnare and use others for their own ends. Good analogy, since Vietnamese restaurants tend to be small and committed to authenticity, without extorting the customer. Held himself out as a model. When my friends are all gone. Why you gotta be so mean? Taylor Swift. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. Not one. Authoritarianism can still be the order of the day in any setting of any size. How does he know that? But please, enough with the Evil Baddy-Bad-Bad Constantine Nonsense. Good Grief. As usual, your comments and insight are on the money, Amy Moore. elastigirl: but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. During this season, we are encouraging everyone to give online and that can be done by clicking the button below. I am of the Done tribe, but still begin each day committing to leaving the door to my heart ever so slightly ajar. Vincent: Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. ++++++++++++++++++++. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! Info on the photo is apparently wrong. You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. Or an attempt to conceal more? Consider the following Scriptures: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors [POIMEN] and teachers (Ephesians 4:11). You cant express truth sufficiently in religious teachings and traditions; it can only be found in a relationship with Christ. At a lot of these churches, you try and start an unapproved Bible study on the side, theyll shut it down or insist on putting an approved church leader in control. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). We have seen through the falsity of that which proclaims itself the infallible voice of God. Its happening now; how many of us are refugees from groups that went awol? Sure, an innocent, upright person could be naively drawn into something they thought was worthy. Finally, you deactivated your Twitter account a week ago. fear of the evil, scary worldly world. At the very least, they need to reveal ALL they know, including leading the charge to open all of the financial books, including known and secret accounts. But how long, under the sort of behavior he and others depict, can one be excused for overlooking the facts? When she cleared the backlog, the partial Lauren went through along with my original longer one. Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. For you, maybe, but not for most here. Further, a cental message of the Bible, as I learned over many, many years, is that mankind is fallen, and religious leaders/system are fallen, in many ways more fallen than the secular/hunanistic world that so many religous leaders rail against. I know we have to hunt to keep down the population of wild creatures, especially in areas where they dont have any natural predators, so they dont destroy the environment and/or starve. That brings back a memory I havent thought about for years. The days of intermediaries are over, and we all have access to the very Spirit of God to lead us personally as he desires us to go. [] its unfortunate that people are making them public. Runnin bear dove in the water, little white dove did the same dont do anything just because you want to (that would be selfish) but wait until you hear from God. You have been on the pulse, on target, and on the money with each and every post I have read on Twitter and now on TWW. I hope you do for your own sake so you do not end up like the Pharisees that Jesus plainly stated were headed straight to an eternity in hell. Look what that got them. And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. It was written by someone who could easily have become Elmer Gantry if hed gone into religion instead of literature. I assure you that I do not see it as a Catholic problem, nor do I believe that all involved in the institutional church through the centuries have done so with wrong intentions. Unless, trying very hard to see it from the inside' their vision of God, whom they reckon they were imitating, is more arbitrary, capricious, violent and domineering than mine. Forgive MacDonald if he genuinely repents? Weve drifted so far from the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth, Im not sure the institutional church can find its way back. The first step for anyone who insists upon an institution with paid leaders (I would argue against such) is to limit those salaries to moderate living wages, in line with or less than what the majority of their members live with. What church does Dallas Jenkins attend? There have been countless decisions made for Christ at Camp Harvest, along with the immeasurable life-transforming impact on countless students, men, women, and families. 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Because (my opinion) in many brands of evangelical protestantism, Paul is the absolute gold standard for all things Christian. They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. not self-willed I judge not those who remain I truly understand the depth of the manipulation but hope they do not fall victim to the crisis of faith and to the abyss that often follows when all youve built your faith on falls to ashes. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? +++++++++++++++++++. What in the world is going on? Besides, nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra. I do have to apologize for a comment that I made that was based on my faulty memory of the facts. Movies Popular Now Playing Upcoming Top Rated TV Shows Popular Airing Today On TV Top Rated People Time and again in these situations, people who were involved exclaim about how God was working and God was doing things! I thought it myself in the situation I was part of, years ago. With 17+ degree options, we have something for everyone. Through prayer and provision, a permanent location for our North Shore Campuswas found in Highland Park, in September of 2015. Harvest Bible Chapel has fired its founder and senior pastor James MacDonald following years of controversial behavior, financial scandal and allegations of bullying and intimidation. With their leadership training, it appears that men like Hybels and MacDonald groom charismatic potential leaders in how to control and manipulate naive, trusting believers for their own personal, or the institutions, gain. Thats a rare bird, indeed, in the American church. The statements were given to Greg Bradshaw, who shared with only a few Elders. There is no believing without proof. I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. Truth (the Word) + The Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit) = Revealed Truth. Hmmm it appears that Lauren and Amy are the same person. I once perceived this as a tragic loss, leading only to hopeless cynicism. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. And its always dangerous when two fabrics team up. In addition to the institutional realities in the Gentile churches that we can read about in the early post-biblical literature, we have Pauls guidelines and, IMO above all his vision of one-another relationship within the churches. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. GreekEpigraph: Thats why Im asking LLS (and Ken/Tweed, if he wants) how do these worship men, not God structures ever have any mechanisms at all to keep from going wildly off the rails? He makes vague remarks about how the blogs have certain things mistaken, or that their motivations are suspect but doesnt actually bother to correct them on anything specific. Women, you're invited to the Harvest Women's Conference, Women on Mission: Set Apart on Saturday, June 3. As both Luke and Peter write, they use all three Greek terms in the same context, regarding the same office, filled by the same men. Dallas was complicit in this, and hes still complicit in attempting to hide the truth. If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. Yet with their plausible and attractive arguments they deceive those who are too simple-hearted to see through them (Romans 16:17). TS00: Agreed. Wow. What is significant about Clements first letter is how he describes the church offices as an established fact rather than as something he was trying to invent from scratch. Our musicians have taken to heart the mission, core, and purpose of Vertical Church music: To write songs of ascription for the church to use in worshiping Christ around the world. I adhere to the never-say-never adage but cant even remotely imagine EVER being involved with a church again. But no matter what, it will get bent quickly if thats whats happening. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. Every man has his price, or a guy like me couldnt exist. We all know who is trustworthy, mature and wise to go to for advice or counsel. Its not all of it, but its certainly a substantive portion. Many are passionate about their cause, but it is far too often found to be a misplaced passion. . People should get out while they and their families still have some kind of faith. The damage lingers. So I come here to learn, share solace and insights, and tell the odd bear joke. No more circumcision. The laity has a huge role in keeping leaders in check, at least theoretically. , I would disagree. This in spite of the fact that our family was the friendly face that attracted many, the ones who were always approachable, in a way that the cool, distant pastor could not be. More Campus News . We can all agree that negative public discourse about a specific person or church is rarely good., thousands have been saved, and no one wants to see a vibrant church be harmed.. The elders, set in place by God Himself (Ephesians 4:11), are to watch over, tend to and care for the flock of God. I am sorry that my concerns about the institutional church from day one cause you distress. And that fourth bullet point: The elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to *protect their family. My cousin belongs to a house church in western Iowa. Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. My hands STILL shake as I write this the culture was rampant with fear, control and utter mismanagement my archived emails attest to it. Or get your own blog and allow comments to your hearts content. 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